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heist
04-02-2009, 02:05 PM
ooooh controversial.

http://iamelgringo.blogspot.com/2009/02/tables-vs-css-css-trolls-begone.html

"So, I'm going to give up and use tables. It's going to take me all of 45 minutes to undo the last two weeks worth of CSS work. I'm going to launch my site. And then, I'm going to go and get a donut."


point taken though. you probably shouldn't waste two days of billable time on pro-div zeal. get it done and then figure out how you're supposed to do it on your own time.

I like reminders like this, not to get too caught up in the serious business of internets zealotry. first and foremost we're here to produce.

temp
04-02-2009, 02:09 PM
gah.. I like the pragmatism, but the argument says nothing about css or css trolls.

Tables are the right choice for him, because he doesn't know css.

He's just saying "I don't know c# so I'm gonna write it in perl".


I would argue that the sites he references use tables for reasons other than "I can't afford to implement this in css".

Ergo! (I never get to use ergo)

He's the css troll.

heist
04-02-2009, 02:26 PM
yeah it's the message of pragmatism that's valuable.

just about everything i read is quite rightly about best practice, about the ideal way to do things, but "real world" it's good to have the reminder that occasionally the best you can do within the constraints you're given, won't be perfect.

reminds me of that thing Biafra said - it's easy to go too far with activism, but then it makes it easier to burn out. if perfection is all that matters, instead of improvement, it's too easy to flip backwards entirely when you realise perfection is unattainable.

so we shouldn't get paralysed by these little things (and a table here or there -is- a little thing), just so long as you don't use it to excuse shitty work, or for not improving.

tuna
04-02-2009, 02:53 PM
Ergo I LIKE tables... stop picking on tables : )

heist
04-02-2009, 03:01 PM
you should only LIKE tables for tabular data

everything else should be recognised as a kludge. the point is not that tables are good, but that sometimes kludges are necessary.

Al
04-02-2009, 03:32 PM
you should only LIKE tables for tabular data

I like tables because they help me keep my house free of kittens, ponies and unicorns.

I don't know how to use tables for web layouts anymore, but I can do it easily(enough) using CSS. In the end, everything gets hacked up, when its a rush or to make something seemingly impossible, possible. One line that really stood out for me at WDS last year was "the internet is all hacks anyway".

tuna
04-02-2009, 10:15 PM
...One line that really stood out for me at WDS last year was "the internet is all hacks anyway".

The web looks pretty, but its all gaffer tape, blue tack and paperclips behind the scenes.

We look after the tape, tack and clips..

jexley
05-02-2009, 08:56 AM
Kludge = Judd's Long and Storied Development Career

And yes, I fixed the kid's pool with bubblegum and candlewax yesterday, and the day before that I patched some mouse-chewed wires in my jumbo A/C unit with newspaper and sticky tape.

Maybe it's more like:
Kludge = Judd's Life

Al
05-02-2009, 11:06 AM
And yes, I fixed the kid's pool with bubblegum and candlewax yesterday, and the day before that I patched some mouse-chewed wires in my jumbo A/C unit with newspaper and sticky tape.

both feats, worthy of Macgyver

indhyper
05-02-2009, 12:07 PM
Maybe it would help if there was a "CSS Cookbook/Wiki/Best practices" online that you could point someone too.

q) "How do I do a 3 column layout?"
a) check this link out...

Web-Designer-Perth
05-02-2009, 05:42 PM
Maybe it would help if there was a "CSS Cookbook/Wiki/Best practices" online that you could point someone too.

q) "How do I do a 3 column layout?"
a) check this link out...

There's a reasonably good search engine for this kind of thing. I think it's called Google or something:

http://www.google.com/search?q=How%20do%20I%20do%20a%203%20column%20layo ut&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

kay
06-02-2009, 07:25 AM
Maybe it would help if there was a "CSS Cookbook/Wiki/Best practices" online that you could point someone too.

You mean like this?
http://css-discuss.incutio.com/

nickobec
06-02-2009, 08:54 AM
I don't know how to use tables for web layouts anymore,
Amen

A few years back, I did three design prototypes in HTML & CSS in less than an hour. One design was chosen and the backend developer demanded that it was laid out using tables.

After a couple of weeks of discussion and the developer not being able to convert a simple CSS layout to tables. It took me close to 3 days to do it in tables, what it took less than 30 minutes in CSS.

I have not used tables for layout since then and the site that I inherited using tables still leaves me scratching my head at times.

tuna
06-02-2009, 09:03 AM
I have not used tables for layout since then and the site that I inherited using tables still leaves me scratching my head at times.

I have 1 client left on a table layout, the site is nightmare to maintain, it takes me 5 times longer to work with than css. Tables are good to hold up my coffee that is all.

scross
06-02-2009, 09:57 AM
You mean like this?
http://css-discuss.incutio.com/

Nice one. Thanks Kay

heist
06-02-2009, 11:47 AM
A few years back, I did three design prototypes in HTML & CSS in less than an hour. One design was chosen and the backend developer demanded that it was laid out using tables.

wait.. why on earth would it make a difference to them?

jexley
06-02-2009, 01:17 PM
Dude, I don't know if you've noticed, but people can be kind of stupid sometimes. I run into it all the time.

But maybe that's just me.

Al
06-02-2009, 01:22 PM
wait.. why on earth would it make a difference to them?

tables are more stable because the world is flat?

*high five*

nickobec
07-02-2009, 10:03 AM
wait.. why on earth would it make a difference to them?
Because that is all they knew. A CSS layout was black magic, table layout was the way to go, the earth was flat and all was well.

They could only build/develop/maintain sites in tables because that how it was when they learnt how to do it back in the dark ages and never keep their skills up to date.

icon
09-02-2009, 02:10 AM
You people are so behind the ball still worrying about CSS...

Some of us philosophically advanced members of the race have decided to move on from CSS. From now on I'll be designing all my sites using Subjective Take Esoteric Analogy Markup. That way I'm not only freeing myself from the css kludge but I'm also freeing the viewer from a dictatorial objectivity and giving them the experience they want.

hambodevelopment
20-02-2009, 03:38 PM
I just mock it up in Photoshop, Save for Web and use an img tag.

Ergo and CSS (http://www.ergocare.com.au) all wrapped up in one :)

temp
21-02-2009, 01:13 PM
Ergo and CSS (http://www.ergocare.com.au) all wrapped up in one :)

dude fix your site

hambodevelopment
21-02-2009, 09:48 PM
dude fix your site

Fix what? I don't know what you mean.

temp
21-02-2009, 10:19 PM
Fix what? I don't know what you mean.

sorry I probably could have given more detail :]

this site:

http://www.ergocare.com.au/

..has no css. It also has references to $(), but that function doesn't exist.

It look like css and js are supposed to be included, but they're not. If you grab the top of html, you can see there's no style or script elements in the head:


jetset:~ grant$ curl -s http://www.ergocare.com.au/ | head
<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Strict//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-strict.dtd">
<html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" xml:lang="en" lang="en">

<head>
<title>Ergonomic Office Equipment Sales &amp; Hire - Ergo Care</title>


</head>

<body id="home">

tuna
21-02-2009, 11:49 PM
sorry I probably could have given more detail :

..has no css. It also has references to $(), but that function doesn't exist.

It look like css and js are supposed to be included, but they're not. If you grab the top of html, you can see there's no style or script elements in the head:


Yeah, the $('#footer').ScrollTo(2000) would if the library was present scroll in 2 seconds to the footer.

Placing <a href="#footer">... would have been a good fall back too

hambodevelopment
22-02-2009, 11:18 PM
Haha I started to clean up the HTML and jQuery on this as it was one of my first websites. This shows you that you shouldn't play with websites 5 minutes before you go out for a BBQ!

Cleaning up now and thanks for the heads up guys.